Post Reply 
Threaded Mode | Linear Mode
Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
14-01-2014, 05:01 PM
Post: #11
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
The history is that when the business case for Digital Region was being considered, BT were certainly p*ssing about over whether or not they might do FTTC or FTTH or nothing. However within months BT announced they would start a slow rollout of FTTC. ADSL experience suggests that they are very cagey about when, where and how fast they rollout. The only certain thing is that every 6 months or so they seem to speed up. This should have rung alarm bells with the Digital Region project, but they seemed to plough on regardless. They needed an almost monopoly in FTTC to make it work financially. FYI Mosborough exchange was one of the first exchanges to be Infinity FTTC enabled, months before Digital Region even started digging up the footpaths.
I have nothing against my Origin service. It's absolutely fine. I'm no fan of BT either. I'm just annoyed about yet another poorly run public project wasting a bunch of our money. A £10m bung to BT is cheap compared to £1m a month to keep Digital Region running.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2014, 06:14 PM (This post was last modified: 14-01-2014 06:15 PM by Swampster.)
Post: #12
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
I agree on the 1mil/month thing.. which is where the bad management comes in! There's absoultely no way this network, now it's built should be costing that much per month to run, the overheads they've built into the contracts must be insane!

I'm also pretty sure if there was a willingness, the current in situ network could properly be utilised, without any further duplication.. then I'd be happy that BDUK money was being spent on filling in the gaps. In fact it should have been insisted upon, considering the public money already spent. We aren't in the ridiculous situation where NPOWER digs up the roads lays down it's own power cables and pylons next to EDF's, so why should this be any different?

As for BT, I know they ran early trials of FTTC in South Yorks, but they had no ambition to provide the cover they are doing noow. They were still arguing the toss of whether they should be rolling out FTTC at all, unless the Govt funded it.. AND, they were pretty insistant that no-one else would get use of their fibre at the time too if they did go ahead with it. In my opinion most of the South Yorkshire rollout of BT's FTTC has been a mix of reactive panic and or punitive action to throttle DR. I mean, they couldn't be more obvious.. one minute they're happily in the running to manage the entire network (their fttc rollout locally seems to have slowed down, at this point), it's announced they're no longer in the running, the very next day... bam! 6 South Yorkshire exchanges announced to receive BT fibre.

[Image: swampster.png]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
14-01-2014, 10:01 PM
Post: #13
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
They still have overheads and interest on the loan to pay which can be a huge amount - if something goes wrong it costs to send out engineers and fix the cabinets - i've seen BT working on their own cabs at between 2am-4am and on sundays.

yes they might be a big corporate company but tbh I've been overall happy with the service since I switched. Previously I rarely got more than 7 days being connected, now I only loose connection if there is a major issue or I've done something. The pricing is cheaper as well and with BT you can renew contracts part way through and keep getting better deals.

And yes BT were doing early trials (before DRL) as the cabinet I'm on, was part of the trials.

Overall I think getting a major player to take over the network whether it BT, Sky or Virgin is the best move possible for it and the users on there

Mirdragon
Forum Moderator

ISP: BT|Modem:HG612 (Modded)|Router: Smoothwall|Sync: 68Mbit/18Mbit
Network: HP Procurve|4 x TP-Link AP
Mobile: Nexus 4+6|Tab 3 8"|Asus VivoTab+Transformer TF101
Media Services: SkyHD|Xbox One|ChromeBox (OpenElec)|Samsung BDH6500|Youview|Netflix
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2014, 09:56 AM
Post: #14
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
(14-01-2014 06:14 PM)Swampster Wrote:  most of the South Yorkshire rollout of BT's FTTC has been a mix of reactive panic and or punitive action to throttle DR. I mean, they couldn't be more obvious..

Thats the one
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2014, 10:48 AM
Post: #15
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
(14-01-2014 10:01 PM)mirdragon Wrote:  Overall I think getting a major player to take over the network whether it BT, Sky or Virgin is the best move possible for it and the users on there

Agree with this entirely, and any further BDUK money (if forthcoming) used to fill in any gaps..

[Image: swampster.png]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2014, 11:44 AM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2014 11:45 AM by Hippojay.)
Post: #16
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
(15-01-2014 10:48 AM)Swampster Wrote:  
(14-01-2014 10:01 PM)mirdragon Wrote:  Overall I think getting a major player to take over the network whether it BT, Sky or Virgin is the best move possible for it and the users on there

Agree with this entirely, and any further BDUK money (if forthcoming) used to fill in any gaps..

Bit of a pipe dream though eh?

If I was Sky/BT (i'll leave Virgin out at the mo) - why would I want to purchase DR? A whole seperate network for what? 3,000 (if numbers are believed) subscribers?

Fibre might be interesting, as digging up roads is an expensive operation, but the rest? No thanks..
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2014, 12:29 PM
Post: #17
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
That's only 300 subscribers on DR as it stands, if a big player were to take it up there'd be a damned site more than that .. I'd be amazed if there wasn't way more than 3000 subscribers on BT's own FTTC in South Yorkshire already and that's with it's very spartan and patchy coverage.

There must be something worthwhile to this fibre lark, as BT are merrily going about duplicating what is already in place..

[Image: swampster.png]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2014, 12:42 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2014 12:44 PM by Hippojay.)
Post: #18
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
(15-01-2014 12:29 PM)Swampster Wrote:  That's only 300 subscribers on DR as it stands, if a big player were to take it up there'd be a damned site more than that .. I'd be amazed if there wasn't way more than 3000 subscribers on BT's own FTTC in South Yorkshire already and that's with it's very spartan and patchy coverage.

There must be something worthwhile to this fibre lark, as BT are merrily going about duplicating what is already in place..

Look at it from BTs view - they would be purchasing a completely seperate network:
* A NOC - they don't need that, they have their own
* The people (under TUPE) - they can do without the extra headcount and the issues with re-training people.
* Fibre - could be useful, as digging is expensive - assuming DR own these and they aren't leased.
* Cabinets - possible, but it might introduce support issues.

Basically, BT doesn't want to run a completely seperate network, as it means more work to support and more cost to integrate. It would probably be better for them to simply pick over and get the bits they want and leave the bits they don't to a liquidator.

Edit: and you can substitute BT for Sky and Virgin if you like
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2014, 01:32 PM
Post: #19
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
I never really anticipated it being taken over as is, some changes would be inevitable for integration.. and yes I see that happening via a sell off of the network and it's assets. But you say BT 'doesn't want to run a seperate network'? Well it was only a few months ago they were in the bidding to do exactly that.

As an aside.. a network is only completely seperate if it's not connected to another network.. these are comms companies, I'm pretty certain interconnectivity wouldn't be much of an issue.

The NOC, ok.. that can be offloaded (or not bought at all) if it's not needed, given it's location in Doncaster I'd guess it'd be pretty easily sellable as a commercial property or even a data warehouse given it's connectivity.

The People, they don't need to TUPE anybody as the network has already effectively been closed down, the people (i.e Thales.. were only contracted to manage the DR as it stood anyway), but BTOR would need staff to maintain any fibre network it implements in South Yorkshire.. whether it lays it itself or utilises what is already there.

Fibre, and Cabinets.. now this is the main thrust of my point, I can't see any reason on a technical level why this couldn't be utilised by 'InsertBigTelco', the current already laid fibre and network of cabs provides far greater coverage than anything BTOR would implement if left to it's own devices without BDUK cash.

[Image: swampster.png]
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
15-01-2014, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2014 03:06 PM by Hippojay.)
Post: #20
RE: Councils Looking To Go BDUK?
(15-01-2014 01:32 PM)Swampster Wrote:  I never really anticipated it being taken over as is, some changes would be inevitable for integration.. and yes I see that happening via a sell off of the network and it's assets. But you say BT 'doesn't want to run a seperate network'? Well it was only a few months ago they were in the bidding to do exactly that.

Wasn't BT bidding to run the network onbelf of the South Yorkshire areas - rather than buying it themselves. There is a world of difference between these two senarios with regards risk, governance, etc

Integration comes with costs and it's only worth doing if there is a ROI. I would suggest that DR's past performance has increased the risk (real or otherwise).

Quote:As an aside.. a network is only completely seperate if it's not connected to another network.. these are comms companies, I'm pretty certain interconnectivity wouldn't be much of an issue.

It's all cash though - why spend it if it isn't nessicary.

Quote:The NOC, ok.. that can be offloaded (or not bought at all) if it's not needed, given it's location in Doncaster I'd guess it'd be pretty easily sellable as a commercial property or even a data warehouse given it's connectivity.

Again, all cost that isn't needed. And easy is a relative term and would surely be a risk. they may not be able to sell/get rid.

Quote:The People, they don't need to TUPE anybody as the network has already effectively been closed down, the people (i.e Thales.. were only contracted to manage the DR as it stood anyway), but BTOR would need staff to maintain any fibre network it implements in South Yorkshire.. whether it lays it itself or utilises what is already there.

As they are taking over an existing service, TUPE would apply. The network hasn't been completely shut down, but they obviously aren't running the same level of staffing.

Quote:Fibre, and Cabinets.. now this is the main thrust of my point, I can't see any reason on a technical level why this couldn't be utilised by 'InsertBigTelco', the current already laid fibre and network of cabs provides far greater coverage than anything BTOR would implement if left to it's own devices without BDUK cash.

Fibre you may be right about (again, subject to who actually owns it and whether it goes to the right places) - but I'm not too sure about Cabinets. I keep seeing people say that "XYZ should buy the cabs", but I don't think it's that easy. Age, condition and ownership of equipment; is it compatible with BTs equipment ; any ongoing costs.

If it was such a no-brainer, then it would have been done already. But i'm guessing there are commercial reasons why not. None of us are in possession of all the facts, so I simply wanted to present an alternative to all of the "Why don't XYZ just do ABC?"..

I just can't see a reason why Sky/Virgin/BT would want to buy a failing/failed network company in South Yorkshire.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
« Next Oldest | Next Newest »
Post Reply 


  • View a Printable Version
  • Send this Thread to a Friend
  • Subscribe to this thread


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)